This week on The Square Circle, we discuss the Supreme Court’s decision to overturn Roe v. Wade, the testimony of Cassidy Hutchinson before the January 6 committee, and the Court’s decision on prayer and public schools.
Quin Hillyer of the Washington Examiner, Erin Matson of ReproAction, and Dan Mitchell of the Center for Freedom and Prosperity discuss these issues and more. Foday Sillah hosts.
The audio version is available on any podcast platform.
Below is a rough transcript of the first few minutes.
Hello and welcome to the Squared Circle. I’m your host, Foday Sylla. Join us today, conservative columnist for the Washington Examiner, Quinn Hellyer. Hey, Quinn. How you doing today? I’m doing fine. Farai, how you doing? I am well. Good. Progressive
[00:00:21]and executive director of Repro Action’s Erin Madsen. [00:00:27]
Hey, Ms.. Madsen. Nice to see you again. [00:00:29]
Good evening, Friday. Good to see you. Always a pleasure. [00:00:34]
And libertarian Ben Mitchell of the Center for Freedom and Prosperity. Hey, Mr. Mitchell. How you doing this? Good doing. I’m doing great Hope. And you’re doing great as well. Welcome, everybody. Last Friday, the Supreme Court issued its highly anticipated ruling on abortion. Here’s the coverage from ABC News. [00:00:58]
Bottom line, Roe versus Wade is overruled. There is no constitutional right to an abortion in this country anymore as of today. Justice Samuel Alito in, as you say, an opinion that tracks very, very carefully as far as I can see at this point with the opinion that was leaked, the draft opinion says, without question, it is time to heed the Constitution and return the issue of abortion to the people’s elected representatives. [00:01:28]
Ms.. Mattson. What? What can you tell us about this ruling? Yeah, the Supreme Court has has issued an absolutely devastating ruling to overturn 50 years of precedent that affirmed women’s equality in the Constitution. Unfortunately, now we can expect that in short order, more than half the states are likely to not offer abortion in clinic abortion care because of what the Supreme Court has just done. I can’t speak strongly enough about the devastation that this is causing. Everywhere I look and turn, I’m hearing from women of a variety of ages who are just heartbroken to know that a Supreme Court has decided that essentially the 14th Amendment doesn’t apply to us. [00:02:14]
Anybody else have something to add to that?
Libertarians are split on the on the issue of Roe v Wade in terms of constitutional law. But I’ll say as a as a as a proponent of good government policy, I like the idea that we’re going to get some federalism out of all this. We’re going to see some states have relatively strict rules. Some states have very lenient rules, and people can sort of sort themselves. And you know what that’s going to make us like? That’s going to make us like Europe. Most countries in Europe are on the margin. They tend to be fairly conservative with abortion relatively freely available for the first three months or so.
But after that, it gets fairly strict and I don’t see any reason why turning it back to the democratic process, letting states sort themselves out, finding a political equilibrium and hopefully defuzing the issue as something that causes so much division. I actually welcome this and I think it’s going to wind up. Yeah, well, after like three or four years of fighting, we’re going to wind up with an equilibrium that I think is going to be satisfactory to 90% of the population.
I agree with I agree with Dan. I think with every word that he just said, I would just add that regardless of what you think of it as a policy. The so-called right to abortion might be a good idea if you think so, but it’s not in the Constitution. The original Roe v Wade decision was so bad that as constitutional law that even a whole bunch of pro-choice, liberal constitutional scholars said it wasn’t rooted in the Constitution at all. It was basically its reasoning was abandoned in the Casey case of 1992, which substituted a new made up reason to find a right to abortion in the Constitution, which was also ludicrous as constitutional law. Last week’s decision was absolutely right on target. Now we get to go and start deciding what the best policy would be.
Mr. Madsen Yeah. I mean, this is chaos. I would say this is the absolute opposite of good governance, because what we now have is a patchwork of access and a package work of laws. And unfortunately, I think some people think this law, this decision and ruling only impacts them if they want to have an abortion. I’m very sorry to say that that’s not the case. And we’re already seeing that anti-abortion laws are being explored to bar people from traveling to another state to access abortion care. We think of the we think of a constitution protecting various state laws. And that is seems to be on the chopping block.
The National Right to Life Committee has put forward a bill that would even criminalize sharing information about how abortion pills work. In fact, right before this taping, I was out with a bullhorn outside the Supreme Court sharing information about the World Health Organization protocol for self-managed abortion with pills. That freedom of speech is something that the National Right to Life Committee model legislation would actually criminalize. And what I just did so so there are a variety of rights that are on the chopping block as as a as a result of this. And at the end of the day, I just want to express my sorrow and horror and solidarity with people who are scrambling to find care in this country right now.
If I can jump in and say one more thing about the bit about crossing state lines as a as an originalist, as a real originalist, I would note that there is another part of the 14th Amendment that should preclude any laws that prohibit traveling across state lines for such purposes, except insofar as it involves ferrying minors across state lines. It’s the privileges and immunities clause. And I would oppose even I’m a pro-lifer. I would oppose any pro-lifers trying to pass a law that says you can’t travel to to another state for for just about anything, because the right to travel interstate is absolutely guaranteed by the Constitution through the privileges and immunities clause. And and as a even as a conservative, I would uphold that right for people that want to take advantage of it, even if I might disapprove.
Mr. Mitchell, you have anything to add to that? Well, let me say something in defense of the patchwork of laws that are going to be out there. I think that’s part of the process that will enable us to get to the equilibrium that I think will satisfy 90% of the population. If you talk to the most pro-life person out there and say, okay, are you going to try to outlaw IUDs? Because at least if I understand correctly and I might be wrong, that prevents the implant implement implantation of a fertilized egg. So is that an abortion? Are they really going to try to go overboard with a law like that? I don’t think so. On the other hand, you talk to some of the most pro-choice people out there and say, look, are you really comfortable with the idea of having an abortion at eight months and 20 days and at least privately they’ll say no, that’s really gross. So I think letting the political process work, letting democracy get at it, yes, some states will be more strict. Some states will be more lenient. But I think we will wind up like Europe.
And I just I just don’t think that’s a bad result. And if it really bothers some people, if they live in Mississippi, hop on a plane and go to Illinois or something like that. It’s not going to be a major problem. And I agree with Quinn that if some states, if some Republicans follow some crazy model legislation and try to ban travel or prevent people from getting pills through the mail or things like that, then there’s going to be a there’s going to be a negative rebound effect and Republicans are going to wind up losing control, or I suppose I should say pro-lifers. But I assume there’s a heavy overlap nowadays with Republicans on that issue. They’ll ride up suffering politically. And I think politicians above all else, they want to get reelected. And I think that over the next three or four years is what’s going to give us an equilibrium that satisfies 90% of us.
